Charles Barone of the National Parents Union joins Mike Petrilli to debate the Senate’s bipartisan READ Act. Would additional federal funding help states strengthen teacher preparation and expand evidence-based reading instruction, or could a larger federal role politicize the science-of-reading movement and repeat the mistakes of Reading First?
Then, on the Research Minute, Amber Northern reviews a new study examining why tutoring’s impact on student achievement tends to shrink when programs scale up.
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Transcript
This transcript was generated with the assistance of AI and lightly edited for clarity and readability.
Introduction
Mike Petrilli [00:01]
Welcome to The Education Gadfly Show. I'm your host, Mike Petrilli of the Thomas B. Fordham Institute. This week, Charlie Barone of the National Parents Union joins us to debate the Senate's READ Act and whether a larger federal role would advance reading reform or repeat past mistakes. Then, on the Research Minute, Amber Northern reviews a new study examining why tutoring's impact tends to shrink when programs scale up. All that and more this week on The Education Gadfly Show.
[Show opening and theme music]
Mike Petrilli [00:40]
Hello, this is your host, Mike Petrilli of the Thomas B. Fordham Institute here at The Education Gadfly Show and online at FordhamInstitute.org. Now, please join me in welcoming our special guest for today, Charlie Barone. Charlie, welcome back to the show.
Charlie Barone [00:55]
Hey, good morning, everybody.
Mike Petrilli [00:57]
Hey, Charlie is the senior director of the Center for Innovation at the National Parents Union. I was going to say still a newish role, but I guess you've been at NPU now for a little while, haven't you?
Charlie Barone [01:11]
I've been at NPU for about a year and a half.
Mike Petrilli [01:14]
Okay. All right, not so new. Well, good. Welcome back, Charlie. It's great to have you. I hope you've got fun summer plans coming up. But before we let you disappear and enjoy any vacation, we're going to make you talk about the Senate's READ Act. Let's do that on Ed Reform Update.
Ed Reform Update: The Senate's READ Act
Mike Petrilli [01:38]
All right, Charlie. My understanding is that the National Parents Union is one of the driving forces behind this bill in the Senate. It has bipartisan support, which is itself kind of miraculous these days, as well as support from a whole slew of education reformers.
I will admit that I'm a little nervous about it. The bill focuses on the science of reading, and the science-of-reading movement seems to be going pretty well, at least policy-wise. We have states all over the country taking action. I'm always nervous that once the federal government gets involved, that could change.
First, tell us what's in the bill. Then tell us why it will be okay if Uncle Sam gets involved this time around. Why won't this become another Reading First, Common Core, or Race to the Top situation? Put our minds at ease, Charlie.
Charlie Barone [02:44]
So, you know, I think some of your concerns are legitimate. I think you might have a little PTSD from your experience with Reading First, which came out of NCLB. Maybe, if we have time, we can explain to your audience a little bit about what happened there.
But look, what's key for NPU is that this bill came out of parents mobilizing on Capitol Hill and telling lawmakers about the lack of attention they've seen paid to their children's reading instruction, including in states that have already passed laws. One outgrowth of this is progress before a law even gets passed: Legislators have heard parents' concerns, and that has moved them to support a bill.
For Republicans, it's significant that they're willing to get onto a bill where there's a federal role, which is something they've increasingly opposed since the George W. Bush administration. That hasn't been a Republican position. For Democrats, it's significant because they're not always willing to talk about achievement. It's a topic that the powers that be push them away from talking about. There were efforts to get the Biden administration to be robust on reading reform, and they mostly chickened out because of pressure from the status quo.
So the fact that we're seeing Democrats on the Hill talk about reading achievement and reading gaps is progress. These are all leaders who are going to be around for a while, either in their current positions or because of future ambitions for higher office. All of that, even before a bill is passed, has the potential to benefit students and policy.
Mike Petrilli [04:48]
Although I should say on the Republican side, of course, the lead sponsor is the chair, Bill Cassidy, who is on his way out because he lost his primary right after Trump went after him for various sins, including voting to impeach him.
Charlie Barone [05:02]
Right. You could say he's liberated because he no longer has to worry about his primary and, as a lame duck, Trump can't do anything to him. But engagement on the bill started well before his primary, so he did not know the outcome when he was working on this bill with us.
Mike Petrilli [05:32]
Yeah. All right. Well, tell us again, what's in the bill? This is my understanding. It's basically tweaking an existing program that is in the Every Student Succeeds Act and has been operating now for over a decade. So what would this particular thing do?
What the READ Act would change
Charlie Barone [05:47]
It does some key things. One is that, under the law as it was passed in ESSA, states have to send 95 percent of the funding they receive down to LEAs. At the time ESSA passed, there weren't success stories like Mississippi and Louisiana, so pushing 95 percent of the funds down to LEAs made sense.
Since then, we've learned that states can set robust reading policies and affect changes in student achievement. The READ Act would increase the state set-aside from 5 percent to 25 percent. State aid would basically quintuple from what it is now, and hopefully that might motivate states that want to play a more robust role. We're hoping that would be one incentive aligned with what we've learned about policy over the past ten years.
Mike Petrilli [06:54]
Yeah. We've been talking a lot on the show about how this is a big shift, and it's interesting that it's happening more in red states than blue states. This idea of muscular state efforts around reading, and around teaching and learning in general, includes identifying high-quality instructional materials or reading programs aligned to the evidence, hiring coaches at the state level and sending them into individual schools, reforming teacher education, and similar work. This law would allow states to spend their money on those efforts while districts would still receive funding at the local level.
There is a slightly strange provision, in my opinion, that gives preference to states with chronically low NAEP performance. It sounds like a race to the bottom: Let's reward our lackluster states. But I get it. These are also arguably the states with the greatest need.
Charlie Barone [07:48]
I mean, look, you want to balance not rewarding failure with being able to deliver resources and policy leverage to the states that need to improve. For example, when Tennessee applied for Race to the Top in 2009 and 2010, it was near the bottom in terms of student achievement. It received a Race to the Top grant because it had started to become self-motivated.
Tennessee went through the whole honesty-gap debate and raised the cut scores on its state tests because people pointed out that it had the widest gap between its state proficiency scores and NAEP. It has since become one of the highest-achieving states and put together many different policies to get there. Race to the Top enabled that. So I think this could help motivate a state that needs to improve.
Federal incentives and teacher preparation
Mike Petrilli [08:50]
And so maybe that's it. From your perspective, Charlie, is this basically a way to give blue states in particular some political cover and incentives to do the right thing? It seems to me that red states are, by and large, already doing this. Maybe not always perfectly, of course. Implementation and execution are where it's at. But they're more likely to have comprehensive science-of-reading laws on the books and to have put some money behind them. Do we need federal action in order to get blue states in particular to move?
Charlie Barone [09:28]
I think it can help. One thing we've seen successful states do, and states that have adopted science-of-reading laws but not shown student progress fail to do, is address teacher preparation. You brought that up when you were running through some of the policies states have used to change things. Maybe half of the states that have adopted science-of-reading laws have addressed teacher preparation, but half haven't.
If you're a recipient of the grant under this bill, it isn't a mandate because participation is voluntary, but you would be required to overhaul your teacher-preparation programs. That's something not all states have done. I live in New Jersey. We supposedly passed a science-of-reading law, but we didn't really address teacher preparation. I don't know whether it's going to work. There aren't many signs that the law we passed here is going to do much.
When I was at DFER, we had a Connecticut state chapter, and they passed what is a very good law, except they could not get teacher-preparation reform across the finish line. That's a glaring omission, and it makes me wonder whether they'll have the kind of success they might have had if they'd addressed it.
You're seeing in Ohio, since you all pay attention there, what audits of teacher-preparation programs have done in terms of shaking things up. My understanding is that Ohio State did not come out very well in the analysis, so that's pressuring the university to change. That might be an incentive for a state to opt into this program and, as you said, give it political cover.
Addressing teacher preparation is not easy. The resistance among teacher-preparation programs to reform in general, and especially to reform that targets them, is underrecognized in this business.
Lessons from Reading First
Mike Petrilli [11:26]
So I like that, and I certainly agree that fixing teacher preparation and ed schools has been a huge mountain to climb for years. We haven't gotten anywhere near the top. But here's the worry, Charlie. Let's take New Jersey. It has a law that doesn't seem to be doing much good.
I can imagine that part of the problem is the state not being muscular and aggressive enough in identifying evidence-based reading programs and doing something about districts that are still using the bad stuff. This was the Reading First dilemma. Reading First was a formula program, but states had to apply. The Bush administration famously kept turning states down, in many cases two or three times, before finally approving their plans. It wouldn't approve them until states promised to use what we then called scientifically based reading instruction.
The concern was that states and districts were trying to slap a new label on whole language and claim they were doing scientifically based reading instruction, or what we'd now call the science of reading, when they were really doing whole language or so-called balanced literacy and trying to get federal funding for it.
I wasn't directly involved, but I had good friends who were. They held the line and took a lot of grief for it. Eventually, the department faced lawsuits and intense political pressure for, in the opinion of some, going too far with federal control by saying no to states and districts that wanted to use programs that weren't scientifically based. It became a political disaster, and eventually the program collapsed.
I worry about that dynamic here. It's one thing to pass a law. If you actually want it to work, you've got to say, 'No, we're not going to fund your program that has three-cueing in it. No, we're not going to fund something you call scientifically based reading instruction, or now the science of reading, when it isn't.' Why isn't that the future we're heading toward here?
Why this time could be different
Charlie Barone [13:31]
I think things are different than they were twenty years ago. It's been almost exactly twenty years since the whole Reading First effort imploded. I admire the Bush administration, which is one reason I enjoyed working with it to craft NCLB. It wanted to be tough. Its goal wasn't to please everybody inside the Beltway. Its goal was to affect change for children.
The problems were nuanced. The administration was trying to do the right thing by the science, but there was a very negative inspector general's report that accused the department of ignoring conflicts of interest. I think you pointed out at the time that it wasn't surprising there were conflicts because these were people who supported good programs. Still, the report gave people on the Hill enough to work with to go after the Bush administration over cronyism, insider dealing, and conflicts of interest. It was 2006, the issue was highly politicized, and Democrats were trying to take back the House. There were real concerns about objectivity.
That aside, there is now a much broader national consensus about what has been missing from reading policy and how most policy in the United States failed to address the science of reading until recent years. When Reading First was passed, policy experts, scientists, and cognitive psychologists knew that. But there wasn't a broad political consensus. The Bush administration was trying to go from zero to one hundred to implement something pretty radical, and people just weren't ready for it, even though the science was sound. Even groups that weren't especially reform-oriented, such as the Center on Education Policy, said at the time that it was working.
I think there's a much bigger consensus now. It has played out in different places, and people are far more aware of it. That's partly due to the advocacy of parents, especially parents of children with dyslexia, who have raised awareness and been warriors in taking the issue to their representatives. Emily Hanford also had a great deal to do with changing the conversation. She was willing to call people out publicly in a way they couldn't ignore. Then you have the Southern Surge states, which have made it harder to ignore the good that can come from passing sound reading policy.
All of that makes this a very different political landscape from the one we had back then. And this program is not quite as heavy-handed. I hate to use that word because I think Reading First was the right policy, but this bill is less heavy-handed. In 2005 and 2006, the department was more or less trying to dictate curriculum and assessment. This bill sets parameters around the science of reading, but states still choose their own assessments and curricula. It retains many of the state protections Lamar Alexander built into ESSA around federal mandates and control.
Between the different political landscape and the differences between this bill and Reading First, I don't anticipate the same kinds of problems.
Mike Petrilli [17:38]
All right. Well said, Charlie. We shall see. Of course, first they've got to get it passed. We'll see whether that happens. There's plenty of reason to be cynical these days about anything passing Congress, but it could happen in the coming years.
Charlie Barone [17:53]
Let me say one thing quickly. I was back at the ESSA anniversary earlier this year, and I looked at the insider polling on ESSA in 2015. About 65 percent of the supposed insiders said the law wasn't going to pass as late as July of that year. So you never know. That's why President Obama called it a Christmas miracle.
Mike Petrilli [18:17]
And it was. Thank you so much. Charles Barone is senior director of the Center for Innovation at the National Parents Union. The organization has fact sheets, one-pagers, and other information about the READ Act on its website. Charlie, thanks so much for coming on the show. Good to see you.
Amber's Research Minute
Mike Petrilli [18:32]
Now it's time for everyone's favorite, Amber's Research Minute. Amber, welcome back to the show.
Amber Northern [18:42]
Thank you, Mike. It was nice to see you and the rest of the Fordham team and Fordham board last week. We had a big Fordham board retreat and then a staff retreat. It's always nice to see people in person rather than through a screen.
Mike Petrilli [18:55]
I know. That was nice.
Amber Northern [18:57]
I agree. We need to do that every now and then to keep the morale and the Fordham culture going.
Mike Petrilli [19:05]
And we even took in a baseball game and then I totally abandoned you.
Amber Northern [19:13]
Hey, you gave the word, and I thought, yeah, I don't think I'll make it through all nine innings.
Mike Petrilli [19:18]
I mean, I was ready to go. I was going to take a Lyft back and offered you a ride, but it turned out you had to go get your purse. Oh my God. Don't you know you can't bring a big purse into a stadium?
Amber Northern [19:30]
I know, I know. See, to me, that was not big. That's the problem, right? That was my small purse, Mike.
A couple of our colleagues cruised right in with their purses, but mine apparently went over the line. So I had to put it in a locker, and then I couldn't find the locker. I was thinking, 'Where in the world did this locker go?' This is kind of a big place. But anyhow, you were right to abandon me. Thank goodness Victoria was with me, although I felt bad for her.
Mike Petrilli [20:03]
I thought about being nice and waiting, but when you said, 'Where was the locker? I know it's down by the street, by the exit,' I thought, okay, there are about fourteen of those around the stadium. I knew I was in trouble. I'm terrible with directions and whereabouts, too. I thought, oh no, there are two of us. It truly was the blonde leading the blonde.
All right. Anyway, good stuff. It is time for our Research Minute. What do you have for us this week?
Why tutoring effects shrink at scale
Amber Northern [20:41]
We have a new meta-analysis from Matt Kraft and his colleagues. They're going back to the well and looking at tutoring, but this time with a more refined question, which I really like: What should districts expect when tutoring is taken to scale?
Earlier studies showed that tutoring produces large achievement gains, but those studies often operated under different assumptions than district policymakers have in mind. The researchers wanted to see how applying tutoring to larger samples affected the results. They examined 263 randomized controlled trials. That's a lot. They included only wealthier OECD countries, giving them a sample roughly three times the size of their prior meta-analysis.
Then they narrowed the sample to resemble the kinds of tutoring programs districts actually operate. That means large-scale programs serving hundreds or thousands of children rather than a few dozen, which is what some earlier studies examined. They also used standardized tests as outcome measures because the prior meta-analysis included researcher-created tests aligned to the tutoring curriculum. You can see how that might influence the results. So this is a newer and, in my opinion, more realistic study.
First, they calculated the effect sizes for all 263 programs and replicated their old finding: very large effects of about 0.40 standard deviations. But, again, that finding was driven by small studies, often at the elementary level and focused on literacy tutoring. When they restricted the sample, the effects shrank.
Programs serving fewer than 100 students averaged effects of about 0.51 standard deviations. The effect fell to 0.30 for programs serving 100 to nearly 400 students, 0.23 for programs serving roughly 400 to 500 students, and about 0.16 for programs serving 1,000 or more students. The more students you add, the more the effects diminish. The effects are still meaningful, but they aren't the kind of blow-your-head-off results that appeared in the original research once you narrow the analysis to more relevant programs.
The researchers then asked why effects diminish as programs grow. Larger programs had higher student-to-tutor ratios, offered fewer tutoring sessions, and struggled to identify or reach the students most likely to benefit. They also appeared to have weaker implementation fidelity.
Next, the researchers looked at the ingredients that might buffer large-scale programs against diminishing returns. The key was maintaining a low tutor-to-student ratio. You need more tutors if you're going to serve more students. Tutoring should happen during the school day rather than after school, staffing should be consistent, and programs need an adequate dosage. If you do those things, you can resist some of the decline in effectiveness that comes with scale.
I also wanted to dig into virtual tutoring. The researchers found that more recent studies of virtual tutoring are producing results increasingly similar to those of in-person tutoring. They included studies going back to around 1999 or 2000, but the more recent virtual programs appear to have effects on par with in-person programs.
Then I asked, what does adequate dosage mean? Based on their estimates, high-impact programs appeared to provide about 30 to 50 hours of tutoring, while the strongest programs provided more like 50 to 100 hours per year. Tutoring also appeared to need to occur two to five times per week.
The bottom line is that tutoring remains a strong intervention. It isn't as impactful as earlier studies suggested once we account for real-world constraints. When programs scale to hundreds or thousands of students, districts have to pay much closer attention to the design elements.
Cost, dosage, and virtual tutoring
Mike Petrilli [25:43]
Yes, good stuff. I think this dose of reality is important because, in the real world, it's hard to hit these ideal conditions. Did they get into return on investment at all, Amber?
Amber Northern [25:57]
I did not see that, no.
Mike Petrilli [25:59]
Okay, because that's a big one. Fifty to 100 hours, three to five times a week. That gets expensive.
Amber Northern [26:10]
Right. We've talked before about how there are always trade-offs. If you're trying to do this during the school day, you're hiring a lot of tutors, and that's money you can't use for other things.
Maybe a moderate impact is okay. I still think the moderate effects are sizable. An effect of 0.40 standard deviations is high impact. To me, 20 to 30 hours of tutoring could still be worthwhile for a moderate effect, versus 30 to 50 hours for the highest impact. An ROI analysis would be helpful, but districts don't necessarily have to swing for the fences.
Still, serving that many students while keeping the groups small requires a lot of tutors. That's the problem: hiring enough tutors, getting them to stay, and avoiding turnover.
Mike Petrilli [27:13]
Yeah, and then you layer on top of that the hope many people have that the new federal Education Freedom Tax Credit will open up new opportunities for tutoring. You could have tutoring scholarships for public school students, but it's hard for me to see how those could be used during the school day if tutoring during the school day is supposed to be free. If it's after school, you're back to the challenge of getting students to stick around and show up.
Amber Northern [27:43]
Yep, and then it isn't as effective.
Mike Petrilli [27:45]
Right, because they don't show up. If they do show up, how do you get a student to attend enough sessions to receive 50 to 100 hours of tutoring?
Amber Northern [27:55]
Yeah.
Mike Petrilli [27:56]
Especially when they probably want to go home. But maybe somebody can figure this out. Could we make it legal, for example, to have a student receive tutoring during lunch and say that it is an extra service, so the scholarship can be used for it? I don't know. It feels a little like a square peg in a round hole.
Amber Northern [28:20]
Yes, that's right. But if more recent studies continue to show that virtual tutors can be as successful as in-person tutors, that gives us some cause for optimism. It could be less expensive, and you wouldn't need as many people physically present. We need to keep an eye on that finding and see whether it continues to bear fruit.
Mike Petrilli [28:44]
Yep. Well said, Amber. Thank you for that. And good work by Matt Kraft and his colleagues. Looking at the big picture across multiple studies is super helpful for policymakers and practitioners. Keep doing it.
Amber Northern [28:59]
Yes. Yes. Yes. It helps.
Closing
Mike Petrilli [29:02]
All right. That's all the time we've got for this week. Until next week.
Amber Northern [29:07]
I'm Amber Northern.
Mike Petrilli [29:08]
And I'm Mike Petrilli of the Thomas B. Fordham Institute signing off. The Education Gadfly Show is a production of the Thomas B. Fordham Institute located in Washington, D.C. For more information, visit us online at fordhaminstitute.org.