Stefanie Sanford, president of Civic Ventures at Alithi Consulting and Humanitae Philanthropy Advisors and a trustee of the Thomas B. Fordham Institute, joins Mike Petrilli to discuss how America’s 250th anniversary could help renew civic life. They explore why civic formation must extend beyond the classroom, how schools can teach both the achievements and failures of American history, and what young people need in order to develop a sense of civic responsibility in an increasingly polarized and digital society.
Then, on the Research Minute, Amber Northern reviews a new study examining gaps in how schools are adopting artificial intelligence, including differences in training, policies, and guidance for students and teachers.
Recommended content:
- Civic Life in the Information Age —Stefanie Sanford
- Civics, citizenship, and America 250 — Chester E. Finn, Jr., Thomas B. Fordham Institute
- Civic Profile —Hoover Institution
- America at 250: Surveying Change and Continuity on Civic Values — by Karlyn Bowman and Nicole Penn, AEI
- AI Diffusion Gaps: Unequal Integration of AI Across K-12 Schools —Christopher Campos and John D. Singleton, NBER (2026)
Feedback Welcome: Have ideas for improving our show? We would love to hear them. Send them to [email protected]
Transcript
This transcript was generated with the assistance of AI and lightly edited for clarity and readability.
Introduction
Mike Petrilli [00:02]
Welcome to The Education Gadfly Show. I'm your host, Mike Petrilli of the Thomas B. Fordham Institute. This week, Stefanie Sanford joins us to discuss America's 250th anniversary and how schools and communities can help renew civic life. Then, on the Research Minute, Amber Northern examines gaps in how schools are adopting and managing artificial intelligence. All that and more this week on The Education Gadfly Show.
[Show opening and theme music]
Mike Petrilli [00:39]
Hello, this is your host, Mike Petrilli of the Thomas B. Fordham Institute, here at The Education Gadfly Show and online at FordhamInstitute.org. Now, please join me in welcoming our special guest for this week, Stefanie Sanford. Stefanie, welcome to the show.
Stefanie Sanford [00:55]
Thanks, Mike. Great to be here. I've been a fan for a long time. I think this is my first appearance.
Mike Petrilli [00:59]
I cannot believe it is your first appearance. We will definitely make sure it is not your only, but it is great to have you on.
For those of you who somehow do not know the great Stefanie Sanford, let me introduce her properly. She is president of Civic Ventures at Alithi Consulting. Did I say that right, Stefanie?
Stefanie Sanford [01:17]
You did. Alithi, very good.
Mike Petrilli [01:18]
Okay, very good. She is chair of the board of Citizens & Scholars, an advisor to the National Constitution Center, author of Civic Life in the Information Age, and, most importantly, a trustee at the Thomas B. Fordham Institute. Again, I hope I got all that right. It's a long resume you have here.
Stefanie Sanford [01:37]
Well, thanks, Mike. As one friendly amendment, I'm actually an advisor to the National Constitution Center, not a board member.
Mike Petrilli [01:42]
Oh, not a board member. Okay. Thank you very much for that.
People may notice a theme here: You do a lot of work and have thought a great deal about civic education. It is, of course, America 250, our big birthday party, and everybody is thinking about civic education today. So let's talk about that on Ed Reform Update.
Ed Reform Update: Civic formation beyond schools
Mike Petrilli [02:05]
Stefanie, I have noticed, as you have as well, that for the past decade there has been this renewed interest in civic education. Like a lot of people, you and I are not big fans of where our politics are.
After all, we know that schools have long had a civic purpose, going back to Horace Mann and certainly John Dewey. This is why we fund education in a democracy: We believe we need citizens who are well informed. I worry, though, that sometimes we are expecting too much. The problems we're living through don't have a whole lot to do with our schools, and I'm not sure our schools can do much to fix them. What do you think?
Stefanie Sanford [03:12]
Thanks for that setup. Civic education, civic engagement, and patriotism have been passions of mine throughout my career and even since I was a little kid.
It is gratifying to see renewed attention to civic education, the civic purpose of school, and the idea of preparing young people for democracy. I share your concern that, amid many of the problems you laid out, we're hearing, "The schools will fix it," or, "Civic education will fix that."
I don't think schools got us into this, and I don't think schools alone will get us out of it. Schooling and preparation for democracy certainly have a part to play, but schools can't do it alone. The idea that passing a bill, adopting a requirement, or offering a high school class is somehow going to meet the moment is misguided. Schools already have a lot on their plates and face many challenges. Saying, "The world is in a lot of trouble, schools fix this," probably isn't a productive posture.
As we gather during Independence and America 250 week, I think there are some lessons and images for us. In a democracy, civic formation is central to all of us. I think of it as intergenerational civic formation. These things happen first in families, communities, and civic institutions. Yes, they also happen in schools because of the amount of time young people spend there and the central place schools play in communities. But civic formation is a lifelong development of knowledge, skills, and capabilities.
In that sense, I welcome the attention to civic education, civic formation, knowledge, skills, and capacities. But the answer isn't simply, "Let's pass a bill and add more civics classes." It is to renew our commitment to the civic formation of young people and our citizenry, which is a much broader proposition.
Even looking at what is happening for America 250, it isn't confined to civics classes. I'm going to spend the end of this week in Philadelphia, where they have a wonderful array of activities day after day: parades, the National Constitution Center's Liberty Medal, and all kinds of indoor and outdoor events in that beautiful historic space. I almost think of that as a better picture to hold in our heads.
Mike Petrilli [06:26]
I like that a lot, especially because we see this in other issues that intersect with education. Family matters, community matters, and it has to be more than just the school.
Stefanie Sanford [06:39]
Absolutely.
Teaching the whole American story
Mike Petrilli [06:40]
By the way, there is a lot of hand-wringing today, but there has also been this great celebration around the World Cup happening in America. And guess what? It has been lovely. People from all over the world have come and appreciated how great our country is.
Stefanie Sanford [06:56]
Hasn't that been fascinating?
Mike Petrilli [06:58]
It's great. Visitors are noticing how friendly and generous the people are. They're also noticing how affluent we are and how lucky we are to live in air-conditioned spaces and enjoy all the rest. It is reminding us that we are fortunate to live in a very blessed country, and that is a nice note to go with the anniversary.
One of my big worries, Stefanie, is that when I hear people talk about civics classes in schools, it sometimes sounds like people on the left are thinking, "If we could just teach kids the true history of America, they would understand the inequities and racism." On the right, you hear the exact opposite: "If students understood the history of the country in the context of the rest of the world, they would appreciate how fortunate we are to have a country that is not perfect but is so much better than what came before it." Or they would appreciate our free-market system and capitalism.
It is almost as though civic education is supposed to persuade or defeat the other side of the aisle. That seems crazy. It isn't going to happen. But should we at least try to persuade young people in favor of democracy? Democratic backsliding is concerning. Young people answer surveys indicating that they aren't always sure about democracy versus other systems, and they are cynical about it. Is there a role for schools to put a thumb on the scale in favor of our system?
Stefanie Sanford [08:48]
There is a lot of territory there. On the left, there can be a focus only on America's flaws and on America at its worst. On the right, there can be a focus only on America at its best. But if you look at the numbers, overwhelming majorities believe you ought to teach both. Rick Hess has written about this, and there is good polling on it.
I don't even like to divide it that way because it is a rich and complicated story. We should teach the good and the bad, and we should teach it sequentially. Civic education has sometimes become thematic, but I have come to believe that the American story is an epic story. Like every story, a story that is all bad or all good is boring.
We should teach that story starting much earlier, including through children's books. That doesn't have to become indoctrination. We can teach the history of this place and the history of its ideas, not because they are perfect, but because they matter. I don't know that this is putting a thumb on the scale. Perhaps the thumb on the scale is simply teaching the grand story of America in age-appropriate and community-embedded ways. Do we need to end by saying, "And not only that, it is the most awesome country ever"? Probably not.
But it has been striking, returning to your point about the World Cup, to read accounts from people, particularly Europeans, who come here and say, "Whoa." I can only imagine someone going to the Cheesecake Factory and thinking, "You get this much in one order?" It has been fun to see people visit America, which admittedly is in a rough patch right now, and say, "Wow, this place looks pretty good."
It has also been fun to watch the social side of the World Cup. When we were together at dinner, Dave Driscoll was talking about the Scots, and I had read many accounts about them. An underexplored value of civic engagement is sports. We see it during the Olympics, but that is only every couple of years. With the World Cup, people from many different backgrounds have come together around this sport, and, as best I can tell, it has been joyful. There are ways we can come together and be happy about things.
So it isn't about teaching all the good stuff or all the bad stuff. It is about teaching and engaging over time. There are ways to make this experiential and less about Schoolhouse Rock, although what is the one thing anyone remembers from the bicentennial? I was in fourth grade. Everybody remembers Schoolhouse Rock.
As we think about the experiences young people will remember, what will today's fourth graders remember at the tricentennial? They will remember experiences, whether those are connected to the World Cup, being on Independence Mall in Philadelphia, or something else. CBS Sunday Morning did a terrific episode and visited towns around the country to look at their histories and how they were marking the 250th.
Rather than focusing only on a technical explanation of a system, which is important, we should tell the story of us: how this place began and how it is today. If things are bad now, they have been good before and we have made them better. They have also been worse than they are now.
That can create a sense of agency, starting in your own community and extending outward, and a belief in your ability to make a difference. That sense of agency and resilience, grounded in knowledge and capability, is integral to this moment.
A civic decade and democratic backsliding
Stefanie Sanford [14:07]
As we focus on the country at 250, as we did 50 years ago, we should see this as the beginning of a civic decade. We haven't paid much attention to civic education for a long time. People are paying attention now partly because of the rise of populism and polarization, and now because of this great commemoration.
We can say that this is the beginning of a spectacular ten years. What happened 250 years ago unfolded over a massive civic decade. We should engage with the deep resonance and complexity of that story.
Mike Petrilli [14:48]
I love that. I hadn't really thought about it that way. We are marking the Declaration of Independence, of course, but we will have many other anniversaries leading up to the Constitution. This is not the end of it.
Maybe I'm too online, too much in the bubble, and too obsessed with this stuff. You point that out to me sometimes. You're asking how normal Americans, children, and families will celebrate this milestone.
Knowing that I'm in the bubble, I still worry about democratic backsliding. It is happening on the left and the right, including post-liberalism and the questioning of core Enlightenment principles embedded in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. You hear people question free speech or even whether they believe in democracy or a republic. Sometimes even the vice president says things are going to have to get pretty wild if we are going to change things.
There is concerning material in the ether, and surveys seem to indicate that young people may not be as wedded to some of these basic ideas. Believe whatever you want on policy. Consider yourself left, right, center, far left, or far right. But are you committed to the ideas in the Declaration of Independence? Am I wrong to worry? Can schools do anything? Lecturing teenagers has probably never worked.
Stefanie Sanford [16:40]
A few things. First, I do think you're in the bubble, and I don't think it is dumb to worry. Both can be true.
I've been looking at polling to understand where the electorate is on these questions. More in Common has done work examining different segments of the public. One byproduct of being in the bubble is that the extremes, whether the hard right, MAGA right, super-woke left, identitarian left, or whatever terms you use, punch above their weight precisely because you see so much of them online. On the left, they also have influence in elite institutions and media organizations. So you may be seeing a distorted view.
That said, depending on the poll, the super-woke left might be around 15 percent of the electorate, while the hard-right, anti-woke segment is larger, perhaps around 30 percent. That is not nothing. You could still be talking about 30 to 40 percent of the electorate flirting with illiberalism. Those also tend to be the people paying the most attention. The good news and bad news is that some of the most engaged people can be the worst on this stuff.
But that still leaves a large center of normies. On what schools can do, lecturing teenagers has never worked. There is also a lesson here, and I say this gently, my friend: The more time people spend online, particularly in political spaces, the more social media algorithms push them toward extremes.
I have been thinking a lot about how to meet people where they are, which is on their screens, whether we like it or not, especially for young people. What can happen on that screen that then makes them put it down, go into real life, and do something?
Algorithms and ideologically homogeneous spaces, whether online or in real life, tend to make people more extreme. More in Common has found that, and Cass Sunstein has 30 years of research on it. The more we can break up those dynamics, the better off we will be.
In real life, I don't remember who said it, but it is hard to hate up close. There is nothing farther away than the abstracted pixels you see while reading posts on a screen.
Schools as institutions of civic formation
Stefanie Sanford [19:46]
Schools should help young people learn how to become responsible citizens of their school, community, town, state, country, and world. That needs to be part of the experience.
There is a knowledge component that turns up in social studies and coursework, and I am a civic-knowledge person. But there are also behaviors, sensibilities, and norms transmitted from human to human. We should think of schools as places of that kind of formation.
We are starting to hear similar thinking in career exploration. Because the economy and jobs are changing so much due to AI, people argue that career awareness needs to begin earlier, perhaps even in middle school. To my mind, the logic is the same.
We have fallen into thinking that schools are schools because they are schools, rather than seeing them as institutions of formation that prepare young people to be responsible and self-sufficient in our free-market liberal democracy. We should be more intentional about that.
As for young people, they have always tended to be further left than older people. Remember that many of today's senior citizens who are supposedly so right-wing were holding signs and screaming at people at Berkeley in the late 1960s. There is an arc to these things.
I wonder whether socialism is, right now, a fashionable concept. You have Mamdani and all of his charisma. Free stuff also sounds very good, particularly when rents, interest rates, and inflation are high. Young people being seduced by that promise isn't irrational.
Then there is cynicism. I think cynicism has become a proxy for sophistication: "I'm too cool to believe in anything." I wrote about this in my book on civic life 20 or 25 years ago. My youngest respondents, who were millennial undergraduates, were by far the most cynical.
You could argue that they were trying to appear sophisticated and stick it to the man. You could also say that they didn't understand the system. They saw older people running it and didn't feel they had access to it or knew what was happening. And guess what? That was true.
The thing about being young and then working within a system is that you get older. People may become more conservative not because they become right-wingers, but because they come to understand how the system works. Even if it hasn't worked especially well for them, they understand it. A small-c conservatism then says, "I understand how this works, and I'd like to keep it the same." Young people say, "I don't understand how this works. It doesn't work for me. I want it to be different." Generational effects can sometimes be boiled down to something almost that simple.
Mike Petrilli [23:24]
Schools are one of the first institutions, if not the first, outside the home and family in which young people are truly embedded. How do we make that experience as positive as possible and help them feel connected to it in a way that can later carry over into other institutions?
Stefanie, we could do this all day or all week, but we have to end it there. I hope you have a wonderful time in Philadelphia and enjoy this great America 250 celebration. I really enjoyed having you on the show.
Stefanie Sanford [23:58]
I loved it, Mike. Thanks so much for the invitation.
Mike Petrilli [24:01]
Thanks so much, Stefanie.
Amber's Research Minute
Mike Petrilli [24:03]
Now it's time for everyone's favorite, Amber's Research Minute. Amber, welcome back to the show.
Amber Northern [24:12]
Thanks, Mike.
Mike Petrilli [24:14]
Do you have any big Fourth of July or America 250 plans?
Amber Northern [24:18]
We have a lot going on here in Richmond. I have friends and family coming in, so we're going to catch some fireworks. The Virginia Museum of Fine Arts, which is this highfalutin art museum here, also has a bunch of July Fourth activities, so we'll probably catch some of those.
I haven't looked at the weather. Are we going to have good weather?
Mike Petrilli [24:42]
Oh my gosh, you haven't looked at the weather? It's going to be 101 degrees.
Amber Northern [24:47]
Okay. I had heard it was going to be really hot. I just didn't know it was that hot.
Mike Petrilli [24:51]
It is going to be toasty all up and down the Eastern Seaboard.
Amber Northern [25:01]
What about you?
Mike Petrilli [25:02]
We have our annual crab feast at the swimming pool on Saturday. Of course, as the president of the swimming pool board, I need to be there, as you know.
Amber Northern [25:17]
That's an expensive little event. Crabs have gotten quite pricey.
Mike Petrilli [25:24]
That's interesting. I didn't notice that the price was higher than usual. We get them by the bushel or whatever.
Amber Northern [25:31]
Hopefully they'll have some size on them. I feel like people start catching them before they're fully baked, and they're smaller than they used to be.
Mike Petrilli [25:38]
This is definitely a Virginia, Maryland, and D.C. kind of problem. They have to be five inches across, right? And they're still kind of small. Don't they all come from Vietnam now or something?
Amber Northern [25:59]
We used to catch them with chicken necks and string, Mike.
Mike Petrilli [26:03]
I did that with the kids when they were little. It was great, although my dear niece was very upset when, after we caught them, we started to boil them. She was very young, and I had not fully explained the plan. She had thought of them as pets.
Amber Northern [26:23]
Well, at least you pour beer on them before you drown them. They get to die drinking some beer.
Mike Petrilli [26:30]
Okay. We should probably talk about some research studies, shouldn't we?
Amber Northern [26:37]
We should.
How schools are adopting generative AI
Amber Northern [26:38]
We have an NBER paper from Chris Campos and John Singleton examining generative AI and how it is being integrated into K-12 schools. They surveyed principals, which gives us a new perspective, and asked whether schools have the policies, training, guidance, and instructional supports needed to use AI well.
The researchers designed and fielded a survey that they describe as nationally representative. They ended up with 1,250 K-12 principals surveyed between December 2025 and February 2026, including principals from traditional public, charter, and private schools.
The invitations went out to 73,000 schools, so the response rate was approximately 1.7 percent. They did not use a panel, which can be pricey. They attempted to address the low response rate by weighting the data to account for differences between those who were and were not likely to respond, which is fairly common.
They also conducted a randomized incentive experiment in which they offered a little cash during a second round to attract some of the nonresponding principals. That mitigated some of the nonresponse bias from the first round.
The study is still observational and correlational, so take it with a grain of salt, but the researchers also merged the survey responses with data from other public sources about districts.
They created an AI integration index, which is the main outcome they explore. It combines seven dimensions of what they consider effective AI implementation: whether a school has AI policies, how teachers use AI, how principals use it, whether professional development has been provided, whether the school uses AI tutoring tools, how it encourages student use, and its future integration plans.
We could debate whether all those things are necessarily good. I'm not sure what encouraging student use means in this context, but we'll leave that aside.
First, they find that AI adoption has been remarkably fast. That isn't surprising. Principals report that teacher AI use jumped from just 6 percent of schools in 2022 to roughly 90 percent by mid-2025, which seems quite high.
The infrastructure surrounding AI has not kept pace. Sixty-four percent of schools had provided professional development by mid-2025, but most still lacked a written AI policy. Relatively few had licensed AI tutoring platforms, which may or may not be a problem.
Principals say AI is used primarily as a productivity tool. They are reporting what they think students and teachers are doing. They say students commonly use AI for homework help and essay drafting.
Mike Petrilli [30:20]
Oh, I bet they're using it for homework help. You better believe it. A whole lot of help.
Amber Northern [30:26]
How is that a productivity tool, Mike? That's kind of a positive spin.
Mike Petrilli [30:30]
Mm-hmm.
Amber Northern [30:32]
Students also use it for study guides, which I will accept as a productivity tool. Teachers primarily use AI for lesson planning, administrative work, and grading. Nearly 90 percent of principals say AI rarely or never replaces direct classroom instruction.
Principals themselves report using AI to streamline meetings and paperwork and to help with data analysis. When asked whether AI has a positive or negative impact on learning, about one-quarter say it is improving student learning, while one-third say it is not.
AI integration gaps
Amber Northern [31:13]
Finally, the researchers examine AI diffusion gaps using the integration index. Schools serving larger shares of disadvantaged students consistently score lower on the index, meaning they are less likely to have the infrastructure conditions the researchers associate with using AI well.
A one-standard-deviation increase in student disadvantage was associated with roughly a 0.07 to 0.11 standard-deviation decline in the AI integration index. Charter and private schools lagged traditional public schools by roughly 0.23 to 0.44 standard deviations on the integration measure.
The researchers explored what might explain these gaps, including ESSER funding and technology policies. Several factors predicted higher integration within schools but did not explain the differences across schools.
The only factor they found that reduced the disadvantage gap was district size. Larger districts accounted for about one-third of the difference. The authors think larger districts may be better able to coordinate the people, systems, and expertise needed to make AI implementation hang together.
The bottom line is that AI adoption is nearly universal, according to principals, but the policies, training, governance, and instructional supports that could determine whether AI is helpful for learning remain very uneven across schools.
Mike Petrilli [33:02]
Interesting. When you read the paper, did it feel as though the authors had a fairly pro-AI-in-education perspective?
Amber Northern [33:11]
I think that's fair. I didn't see as much skepticism. The paper's posture was essentially, "Let's try to make this work. What pieces do schools need to have in place for AI to enhance learning?"
What schools should do with AI
Mike Petrilli [33:28]
The findings on private and charter schools are interesting. That could partly reflect school size. Those schools tend to be smaller and are not part of larger systems. If you're a huge school system, you probably have one or several people in charge of AI and thinking about it. A tiny charter or private school doesn't have that luxury.
On the other hand, it could reflect parents' interests. There is a huge backlash right now against technology in general and AI in particular. Schools of choice may be responding to parental demand for children to touch grass and not do anything too focused on AI, although some of the uses described in the paper happen in the background.
On student use, we clearly know students are using AI to cheat. It has made cheating much easier. If you're not worried about that as a teacher or principal, in my opinion, you're totally out to lunch.
Amber Northern [34:37]
I'm thinking of Michael Horn, who talked with us recently. He suggested that perhaps generative AI should not be allowed in high schools, but I think he referred to purpose-driven AI, perhaps something like an AI tutoring application, differently.
This study focuses on generative AI and how it is being integrated. It made me wonder whether we should distinguish between generative AI and other AI tools built for a specific purpose.
Mike Petrilli [35:23]
Right. It is one thing to say we're going to use ChatGPT, Claude, Gemini, and the other general-purpose tools. It is another to use something built specifically for schools with data protections, FERPA protections, and so forth.
I've probably said this before to you, Amber, and may have said it on the show, but I feel like we should be able to find out what is happening from real-world data. School systems have learning management systems, often Google Classroom, Canvas, PowerSchool, or something similar. They can probably see what students and teachers are doing, at least on a screen, and gather information about the degree to which they access AI while doing it.
Researchers could potentially gain access to those systems. We could learn so much. Surveys are fine, but they are imperfect.
Amber Northern [36:24]
I'm a big fan of that. You're making me wonder how much of this information is shared at the school and district levels and how much providers retain for proprietary reasons.
When I was working on the IES report, I said this was a treasure trove of data. Some small groups are working on it. The AIMS group is one that the Gates Foundation supports. There is also SEERNet at IES. Some learning-management-system providers are voluntarily coming together and sharing their data in an enclave while still owning their individual pieces.
I don't know how we incentivize wider sharing so these data aren't kept by individual vendors. To your point, we also need to find out what is accessible at the school or district level so researchers might be able to work around the vendor.
AI feedback for teachers
Mike Petrilli [37:22]
One last question. Did the researchers ask whether principals are using AI to provide feedback to teachers about their instructional practices? There are new tools that use cameras or even just audio recordings to transcribe what happens in a classroom and give real-time feedback to teachers.
Amber Northern [37:42]
Not in much detail. Looking at my notes, the principals say teachers use it for lesson planning, administrative work, and grading as a productivity tool, but not in the classroom for instructional purposes.
Mike Petrilli [37:56]
Even if you're doing old-fashioned classical education, you could record the classroom. Principals can conduct only so many observations per year. You could have a camera on for every class period and ask AI to provide basic feedback, such as, "You're forgetting to call on the students on the left side of the room," "You could improve your questioning in this way," or, "You are doing too much of the talking and the students aren't talking enough."
Amber Northern [38:32]
Mike, you've been talking about this for years, since before generative AI, and we all thought you were a little off your rocker. But I'm going to admit on this podcast that I think you were prescient because I can now see it happening.
It is much more likely now that we have AI and all these tools, and now that we can put privacy protections around the technology better than we knew how to in the past. We can ask AI to de-identify the teachers, students, and voices. The material can become much more anonymized than it was before. I don't think you're crazy about that anymore.
Mike Petrilli [39:20]
Thank you, Amber. Victory.
Just a quick anecdote: A couple of weeks ago, my younger son was at a wrestling tournament. I recorded his match and fed the video into Claude. I asked, "Can you give him some tips? What is he doing well, and what does he need to work on?" The feedback was shockingly good. Of course, I don't know anything about wrestling, so perhaps I only thought it was good.
I've also fed in some of the podcasts we do and asked for feedback. It gives good advice. At some point, teachers could use this as professionals. I understand the danger of using it to evaluate teachers or make personnel decisions, but a teacher could simply ask, "Give me feedback on my latest lesson." And this is just Claude. It isn't even a specialized tool. It is remarkable what these systems can do.
Amber Northern [40:22]
It is. I have a feeling we're going to start seeing some of that here and there, so we'll keep our eyes open.
Closing
Mike Petrilli [40:30]
Sounds good. Thank you, Amber. I hope you have a wonderful long weekend and holiday. Celebrate America.
Amber Northern [40:38]
You too.
Mike Petrilli [40:40]
That is all the time we have for this week. Until next week, I'm Mike Petrilli of the Thomas B. Fordham Institute.
Amber Northern [40:46]
And I'm Amber Northern.
Mike Petrilli [40:47]
Signing off.
The Education Gadfly Show is a production of the Thomas B. Fordham Institute, located in Washington, D.C. For more information, visit us online at FordhamInstitute.org.
